To receive questions (if any) from local residents/organisations under the provisions of Committee Procedure Rule 17 (Part 4B of the Constitution).
Minutes:
The Chair indicated that he would not restrict the time limit for the asking and answering of public questions to 15 minutes.
RESOLVED: To note that the following public questions were received at the meeting:
1.
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Questioner:
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Graeme Neale |
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Asked of:
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Councillor Jerry Miles, Chair of the Overview and Scrutiny Committee
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Question:
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‘Regarding the Vaughan School Expansion plan can you please advise how you are going to safeguard the children, parents and residents against road accidents when there will be an additional 210 pupils plus guardians arriving at school each day? From the most recent plans shown to some residents in September there is only 1 additional teacher / visitor parking place and therefore this will further exacerbate the real risk of a serious accident happeningas not only will there be additional road and pedestrian traffic from pupils and guardians but there will also be a significant increase from teachers and visitors trying to find parking spaces in the surrounding streets.’
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Answer: |
As part of the process to develop the building plans for each school proposed for expansion, consideration has been given to the site, how traffic is managed within the site and the impact on the local area. As part of the planning application process, the approaches and proposals for traffic and travel will be considered.
The expansion of any school will obviously increase the quantity of pedestrian traffic and may increase the amount of vehicular traffic going to and from the school. However, these issues have been carefully considered and there is already a package of mitigating actions in place to deal with these issues.
In respect of pedestrian safety, Vaughan Primary School is located within an existing 20 mph zone and traffic speeds around the school are relatively low as a consequence. Parking controls have already been put in place in the vicinity of the school entrances to prevent obstructive parking and to discourage people from choosing to drive to the school at the busy start and finish times. School travel surveys were carried out last year with staff, parents and pupils at the school which indicated that the vast majority of children attending Vaughan Primary School either walk, cycle or scoot to school and it is clear that the measures introduced have helped with this. It is expected that this trend would continue with the school expansion and limit any additional traffic from the “school run”.
A key part of the Council’s transport strategy is to improve road safety and reduce the number of journeys by car, particularly for schools. The work of the Council’s Road Safety officers and school travel planner are specifically focused on working with the schools to achieve these aims and they are in regular contact with Vaughan Primary School to ensure an effective travel plan is in place and offer road safety education advice and pedestrian / cycle training so that sustainable modes of transport are promoted.
The problems of traffic around schools is a widespread problem across the country and measures to achieve modal shift and support walking and cycling are the only realistic way of addressing these problems. Significant progress has been made with this at Vaughan Primary School currently and is expected to limit the future impact of the school expansion.
The proposals provide 35 car parking spaces and seek to improve existing movement around the site and management of both pedestrian and vehicle flows. For example, where the vehicle route crosses over pedestrian access route on site it is proposed to provide a raised table and a ‘shared surface’ which prioritises pedestrians. This will be further aided by management of access and deliveries by the school.
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Supplemental Question: |
You talk about travel plan and a lot of what you talk about there is very generic and not specific to Vaughan Primary School but the travel plan that was put forward at the meeting held at the school in September suggested that the way forward was to encourage pupils to use bikes and scooters as they would prefer this method of transport.
However, the school’s own newsletters to parents have highlighted serious safety concerns that currently exist using these modes of transport. In fact it has been mentioned in seven newsletters with a further two newsletters covering other road safety issues. Additionally, each day there are cars parked on the school driveway which proves that there is insufficient parking to meet the current demand for parking and also proves that the school is unable to manage its own parking issues today.
If the expansion goes ahead, what is going to change to make the issues that are unmanageable today suddenly manageable? Isn’t it about time that the Council realised that another 210 pupils plus guardians, that is 400 people a day, is a totally unsafe, unviable proposition and that they should withdraw their planning application immediately and take a serious look at the options available?
(I have some pictures here that highlight the current parking problems in the school. I also have the quotes from the school newsletter which highlights the existing problems that they have).
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Supplemental Answer: (Written response) |
The increased traffic and congestion issues associated with the proposals to permanently expand schools in Harrow are fully acknowledged. These are existing issues in an urban area like Harrow and will inevitably be exacerbated by the additional numbers of children that will be attending the schools. The generic planning approach in relation to these issues is important and demonstrates how seriously these issues are viewed and the determination to do all that is possible to alleviate the issues.
In this context it is to be welcomed that pupil preferences are for walking, cycling and scooting rather than cars. The school quite rightly does all it can to encourage safe and considerate travel to school, as demonstrated in its newsletters. The newsletters highlight issues of congestion in the playgrounds and on the pathways and ask that bikes and scooters are not ridden on the school premises at the beginning or the end of the school day. The plans for the proposed building works at the school seek to improve existing movement around the site and include provision of additional cycle racks to promote safe use for travelling at the beginning and end of the school day. |
2.
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Questioner:
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Rosalyn Neale |
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Asked of:
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Councillor Jerry Miles, Chair of the Overview and Scrutiny Committee
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Question:
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‘Regarding the Vaughan School expansion plans Catherine Doran's report to this committee states “there were open meetings in July and September which were publicised to parents through the schools and to local residents via a leaflet distribution to the surrounding streets in accordance with Planning Department's practise when planning applications are submitted. Meetings such as these are not a statutory requirement and were considered to be appropriate to convene for engagement with the school communities and local residents."
The September meeting held at Vaughan Schoolwas only held because a number of questions raised by residents could not be answered at the July meeting due to inadequate council representation. It was also not an open meeting and only residents who had previously raised questions were invited and even then not all were.
The consultation process has been appalling with only part of the surrounding streets advised. As the council decided that it was“appropriate" to hold meetings to engage with the local residents, then why have they not taken the appropriate action to make sure that engagement was robust. Why are you thereforeproceeding with the planning application which should be halted untilan appropriate consultation with residents has beenundertaken?’
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Answer: |
I will read out the answer I have got and then I would just like to add a bit more information I have already mentioned to you because I have approached the Planning Department, just to let you know where the planning application is.
There are statutory processes for consultation on Planning Applications. The consultation on the Planning Application submitted about Vaughan Primary School will be undertaken once the application has been validated by the Planning Department.
Prior to the submission of planning applications on the schools proposed for permanent expansion, open events were held to provide an opportunity for parents and local residents to view the design drawings and talk to representatives from the school, architects, constructors and Harrow Council. These events were engagement activity with local residents.
The events were publicised to local residents via a leaflet distribution to the surrounding streets in accordance with the Planning Department’s practice when planning applications are submitted. Vaughan Primary School informed all parents about the open meeting in July, the majority of whom are local residents.
A further meeting was held at Vaughan Primary School on 12 September 2012 in response to requests from residents who attended the meeting on 18 July 2012, and those residents were invited to attend. Officers were aware that you would be advising other people of the meeting who had yet to respond for various reasons.
As I mentioned before the meeting started, to the residents, I have checked with the Planning Department. The actual application has yet to be validated because they are awaiting further information before that could be done but it will be brought to the Planning Committee. The earliest date I’ve got is January but there will be an application early next year on Vaughan in front of the Planning Committee and therefore there will be another round of consultations. You will also have the opportunity to make representations to the Planning Committee when the application is actually heard.
I understand the Planning Committee is meeting this Thursday and I know there are two other school expansion applications on the agenda. As far as I am aware there are no particular issues with those but obviously when the time comes, you will have the opportunity to make representation about Vaughan.
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Ms Neale: |
Just in answer to what you have just kindly advised us of. You said that there was further information that was needed before the application. Can we be advised what that information is?
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Cllr Miles: |
No, I don’t have the details of that. I was just advised that the Planning Department needs further detailed information about the application. I don’t know what particular aspect. That will be provided and as I said, the application will then be validated and it will go to a Committee at the early part of next year. It has been suggested that January 2013 is the first possible date but it might be slightly later than that.
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Supplemental Question: |
One Councillor told us that if a few residents got upset about this, then so be it. From the lack of transparency that there has been throughout the consultation period, this would seem to be the view of the Council in general.
The Council are pushing this development through without properly listening to any of the issues being raised. This is morally wrong. It is causing immense stress to many residents.
Every time we challenge what you say, we get a different answer. For example, we were told in writing last month that in January the plans were discussed with local businesses and they were asked to put up signs regarding the January meetings. This version of events has now been changed to leaflets were distributed to local businesses.
I am still awaiting a written response to the question I raised at the Cabinet meeting on 11 October and a response to my supplemental question. The minutes have yet to be published and despite me being advised they would be available early this week, they are still not. The verbalised response I received to my main question confirmed that only part of one side of the surrounding roads had leaflets delivered to them. I am sure you will agree this is not sufficient engagement with the residents, bearing in mind that the Council has acknowledged that the notices in relation to the planning application will be distributed more widely.
We have a petition against the plans presently signed by over 130 residents which will be submitted in due course. This demonstrates that there are still many concerns.
In view of this, I will again ask, as clearly the consultation has not been carried out in a way that the Council consider appropriate, then is the Council going to halt the plans until an appropriate consultation has taken place?
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Supplemental Answer: |
Firstly, I don’t know what Councillor you are talking about. I know it wasn’t me but obviously it is not up to individual Councillors to decide what applications do go through and don’t go through.
Obviously in your opinion, the consultation has not been satisfactory but I would say, if you stay on for item 7 which does outline the consultation process for Vaughan Primary School and all the other schools, it has been quite extensive and it has been going on for quite a length of time and it has gone to Cabinet twice. All the schools have been consulted. All the residents and parents have been involved as far as possible and as I have said before, there will be a detailed application. It will go to the Planning Committee that will have details of the final scheme. There will be then a further consultation and you will have an opportunity to make a representation to Planning to present a petition if you so wish. So we are not at the end of the process and I do assure you that there will be further opportunities to comment on the final scheme and make representations as appropriate. |
3.
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Questioner:
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Anant Shah |
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Asked of:
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Councillor Jerry Miles, Chair of the Overview and Scrutiny Committee
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Question:
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‘Vaughan school expansion at the July meeting the figure was mentioned £6. Million then Adrian Parker confirmed on Sept email that total budget was £8.5. Then Catherine Doran's report of October stated £8.9 m. in matter of three months cost shot up nearly by 50% Surely with this amount of money you could build new school on the allotment land next to the present school thus not depriving the children of play ground for nearly two years.’
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Answer: |
The cost of the proposed development at Vaughan Primary School has not been set at £6 million at any point, and this information in July would have been incorrect. On 20 June 2012 Cabinet took the decision to expand Vaughan Primary School and 8 other schools and the indicative cost provided in the report for Vaughan Primary School was £8.9 million.
The use of allotment land to achieve the expansion of Vaughan Primary School is also not being pursued for the following reasons, amongst others:
· Development on open space is not acceptable from a planning policy perspective and there is an unequivocal presumption against the loss of open space in the Core Strategy.
· The complexities and additional expense that the new build on the allotment land would entail. This would include but not be limited to:
o New site access (roads, paths, car parking, site fencing etc).
o New service provision (sewers, drainage, surface water attenuation, water, gas, electricity, phone, internet etc.).
o Additional demolition of the infant block.
o Reinstatement of all the existing school including the hard landscaping to either allotment or soft play.
o Additional consultations and planning applications.
o Legal and planning fees to change the use of the allotment land, if this were possible.
Rebuilding the school on allotment land would entail additional costs above the current budget. Detailed costings have not been undertaken for all these elements, however indicative costings are given below as an example.
The structure elements (floors, walls and roof) of the current infant block (937m2) are being retained and remodelled, which limits where the new school can be built. If this block was demolished and rebuilt on the allotments then additional uplift cost from remodelling to rebuilding is calculated as £843,000. This in itself is a 10% increase in the cost of the project, which cannot be justified in the current economic climate given that there is an alternative cheaper solution available. On top of that basic cost there would be the cost of the demolition of the infant building and reinstatement. There will then be additional costs associated with the new drainage, sewerage, roads, power, gas, water, internet, CCTV and telephone requirement to service the relocated block in the allotment area. The additional work to the infant block will also incur additional site preliminary costs at 15%. As an estimate the total additional project cost from just considering rebuilding the Infant block will be in excess of £1.5million.
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Supplemental Question: |
When you say it was going to be an additional 10% cost building on the allotment, according to the report, it is clearly costing £9 million to build it now on the playing fields.
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Supplemental Answer: |
Yes, the cost is £8.9 million and I think the answer is saying this will be increased by another £1.5 million if it was rebuilt.
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Mr Shah: |
Yes, but then how much income will be taken away from all the residents who are now being affected by this building being constructed on the playing fields?
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Cllr Miles: |
We are merely making a point that a new build would be very, very expensive. |
4.
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Questioner: |
Mr Raja
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Asked of: |
Councillor Jerry Miles, Chair of the Overview and Scrutiny Committee
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Question: |
Regarding the Vaughan School expansion plans, residents who back onto the proposed development have sought the advice of a local estate agent on the impact to their house prices. They have been advised in writing that it could reduce the price by between £10,000 and £20,000 and make the properties difficult to sell. In fact during the near 2 year construction period it would probably make them impossible to sell.
How are the council going to compensate residents for this detrimental effect on the value of their main asset which they have all worked extremely hard to buy and maintain?
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Answer: |
I will read the answer I’ve got which isn’t too long and then I will just add a bit of my personal experience in Planning as it might be useful to supplement the answer.
Planning Committee will make a decision whether or not to approve the proposed development of the school based on the planning merits of the application. The Planning Committee has no power to award compensation to adjoining owners for disruption caused by works to implement a planning permission or in relation to the effect of the works / development on the value of adjoining properties.
A construction programme will impact on local residents and this is recognised. Keepmoat, the Corporate Construction Contractors, would be the constructor for the build programme. Keepmoat is experienced at school construction projects and is sensitive to the needs of local residents as well as those of an operational school during the construction period. Keepmoat will ensure that local residents are kept informed of the programme and there will be opportunities prior and during the construction period for residents to meet with the project manager. This will contribute to the management of disruption during construction.
As part of the detailed development of the scheme, Keepmoat will be engaging with residents, especially those with properties bordering the school site to discuss and gather their suggestions on the final landscaping and screening that will be provided.
My own observations on the first issue you raised about the price of your property. I think unfortunately, what tends to happen if you put forward that an objection, to planning, I think the stock phrase is “it’s not a material planning consideration”.
So officers will look at the development purely in terms of the strategic development plan for the area then they will go down and look at the effect on the environment, neighbouring houses, how it looks in the street scene and obviously make sure it adheres to planning laws. Unfortunately, generally in planning applications, the effect or any purported financial affect on neighbouring residents is not part of the planning procedure so if you put that down as an objection, in my experience you will just get the response it is not a material planning consideration. It is a bit like if you have got a row of local shops and somebody wants to build a supermarket, they are going to lose business but they just look at the building and its affect on the street and the planning laws. The financial consideration is not part of the planning application so that is just my personal observation.
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Supplemental Question: |
What compensation will be paid to the residents for the stress and the anxiety, noise from the two year building planned and construction and what requirements have been put into the planning application to reduce the level of the noise, destruction and pollution during the construction period to screen the view and the noise of the construction? We understand that the noise level survey was undertaken but despite asking, we still await an answer as to what the survey found or how they assessed the noise impact on the residents during and after the construction.
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Supplemental Answer: |
Drawing on my experience of Planning, I think there are three issues. Firstly, the Planning Committee does have power to put various sorts of controls in. So, they can specify the hours of construction, how it will be done and the site itself. So that will hopefully will appear in the actual final planning report that I mentioned that will go to the Planning Committee, so you should be able to look at that and hopefully there will be some controls in there.
As it said in the written answer, the constructor is experienced at, and specialises in, school construction projects. So they are aware of the problems that may occur but there will be the opportunity to speak to the project manager/ the site manager, to make sure if there are any problems, or noise and disruption, they are kept to a minimum. Also, I would think or hope they would follow the Considerate Contractor Code so again there would be controls on the hours they work and to make sure the site is well administered and safe.
Obviously, it will be for a time a construction site so inevitably, there will be an element of noise and disruption but overall, from what I have said, it will be kept to a minimum. There will be hopefully controls in place to minimise any disruption to local residents. |
5.
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Questioner: |
Elizabeth Kaptur |
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Asked of: |
Councillor Jerry Miles, Chair of the Overview and Scrutiny Committee
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Question: |
‘Dear Councillor,
Responding to your letter I would like to ask the following:
One of the Councils Corporate Priorities is; "United and involved communities" but in relation to the Vaughan School Expansion plan they are failing dismally to do this, as neither they nor the local councillors have involved the community enough. Ironically, because of the strong feelings against the expansion plan, the community is more "united and involved" but this is in spite of the Council not because of it and probably not in a way the Council would like.
The Corporate priority goes on to say "A council that listens". They definitely hear us because we make sure they do, but they don't listen to what we are saying and they certainly don't give full replies or take appropriate action. Even if they are listening, how would we know? They haven’t sent out any communication to any of the residents updating them with progress from any of the meetings held in the school despite re-assurances that our comments would be taken into consideration.
Another of the corporate priorities is "Supporting and protecting people who are in most need" but no consideration has been given for the housebound/disabled people who back on to the school and whose lives will be blighted by a two year building plan. There has been scant communication to them from the council and none from local councillors.
How can the Council have Corporate Policies that are meaningless as they certainly do not apply to the residents of West Harrow whose lives are going to be severely affected by the expansion should it go ahead?’
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Answer: |
The report to the Overview and Scrutiny Committee sets out the extensive consultation activity that has occurred in relation to the proposals to expand schools in Harrow. The responses to the consultations have been considered carefully and reported to Cabinet to inform the decisions that have been made and are available to the public.
Statutory consultation in relation to the planning application will occur after the application is validated by the Planning Department. The Planning Department will write to residents, including residents of streets suggested by a local resident, which will be an opportunity for views and any concerns to be expressed.
Vaughan Primary School has sent a number of communications to parents, staff and governors during the consultation processes to keep them informed. Many of the parents of children attending Vaughan Primary School are residents local to the school.
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Supplemental Question:
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I am saying that all the residents are taking their children to that school; there will be a further distance from now on.
Do you think it is morally right what you are putting the residents of West Harrow through? Do you have any idea of an uncertain future we all have whilst the planning application is pending?
We have asked so many questions that remain unanswered which lead us to believe you have no answers but are ploughing ahead anyway.
You have not thought through the consequences of your actions on the lives and homes of residents and are totally out of touch with residents and seem to want to remain that way. Even the Convention on Human Rights states that people have the right for the peaceful enjoyment of one’s possessions. How is having two buildings sat at the bottom of the people’s gardens for 21 months going to allow this? I can just show you how my personal house is going to be affected by it. (Can you pass this round please). This is my vision. I every day think of that and cannot sleep.
Is Harrow Council oblivious of people’s rights and the detrimental affect of proposed changes will have on people’s quality of life, or not simply care at all? When is the Council going to start listening? Withdraw the planning application and take a serious look at the viable options rather than pursue them, carrying on with the ridiculous plan.
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Supplemental Answer: |
As has been laid out in the report tonight, there has been quite extensive consultation with parents and governors, the school, local residents, as set out in the report. As we have already discussed tonight, when the development does ahead, it still needs planning permission, there will be quite extensive planning controls and there will be a chance to try and influence what is put in place before the development goes ahead and if it does go ahead, there will be opportunity for regular on site meetings to ensure any disruption is actually minimised.
I also mentioned during my answers that obviously it is still due to go before the Planning Committee, so the form of the development and how it will be implemented is still to be decided. There will be a chance for further consultation, the chance for residents to actually seek the planning report and if necessary, make a deputation to Planning.
The final form and development has not yet been decided and you will get a chance to put your views to the Planning Committee for approval. |